Folkism and ethnicism are major issues in the Hellenist community, but they look very different than in heathenry or other communities. Why is that? To help us understand the history behind the nationalist and ethnicist movements in Greece, I brought on a good friend of mine from Greece to enlighten us.
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Can you imagine seeing this ownership drama from the perspective of a Hellenic deity? 1,000 ish years of semi radio silence and then all of these mortals start fighting for your hand in marriage.
Im my belief and religion the Delphic Maxims are guidelines but some of my religious values pertinent to this conversation are as follows:
6. Γνῶθι μαθών – Know by learning
7. Ἀκούσας νόει – Listen and understand
12. Ξένος ὢν ἴσθι -Know when you are an outsider
20. Φιλίαν ἀγάπα – Embrace friendship
87. Αἰτιῶ παρόντα – Make accusations face to face
125 . Ἀπόντι μὴ μάχου – Do not fight an absent foe
140. Φθιμένους μὴ ἀδίκει – Do not wrong the dead
134 . Ἐπὶ νεκρῷ μὴ γέλα – Do not make fun of the dead
116. Ἀπέχθειαν φεῦγε – Shun hatred
I’m not an Ethnic or Greek national and I don’t hate you. In fact I don’t appreciate some of the things that have been said about you m, though I understand the outrage. My honest assessment of the situation is as follows: Your apporach to worhsipping the Gods and your beliefs don’t emphasize values of tradition, honor, or respect. There is a certain amount of hubris to stake claim to words and Gods that belong to an entire culture and ethnic group. Even if you were an Ethnic and national Hellene this would be ridiculous and egregious. I also don’t understand why you, as someone with a following and platform would want to ostracize Greeks and religious Greeks as nothing but nationalist bigots because they make it clear how they feel and rather than to listen and open a dialogue with them it seems like you go with this idea that you don’t care how they feel or what they have to say or any knowledge they can impart on you, but you immediately go on the defensive and double down on your views. If you believe in the Gods in earnest I have to wonder why you think the Gods had manifested in Greece in particular if it were not for a reason that was intrinsic to the geographical region and the Greek people. You could follow any number of Gods and pantheons that aren’t Greek if the culture and people of it’s origin means nothing to you. Chelydoreus making these claims about a dead man so far after the fact who can no longer defend himself even if true is rather vile to me. I don’t intend to cause any harm to you personally nor delude myself into thinking that this relatively unknown religion will survive in America or the English speaking world in any authentic capacity without direct correlation and cooperation with Greek organizations. This is akin to a schism before the religion has had time to get off of it’s feet. On the other hand some if your more outspoken critics are petty and extremely disrespectful. With that said I understand it because from their point of view you are going before a English speaking audience claiming to represent their Native religion and culture and are trying to separate them from their heritage while disregarding their culture and general Greek language to call your personal beliefs and practices something that already has a definition and meaning to the greater Greek national identity. I don’t think it’s okay and I think “the colonizer” argument they use against you is a bit ridiculous since this would be considered a form of imperialism if anything.
Nice look forward to the future things
His English is very good not sure why anyone would need captions
Missed this live but:
Solidarity to Greek Anarchists!
Aliakai getting furious with the folkists is inspiring and scary. I sat up straighter on instinct when she got really pissed lol.
The only reason that you're not my favorite priest is because you're not a priest.
YSEE be like:
"It was Zeus and Hera, not Zeus and Heraclitus!!!"
I'm 1% Greek is that enough for folkists to worship the Greek gods? Just as I'm 2% Norwegian. Where does the line stop before you can't?
I'd like to add an interesting point from the Heathen perspective at 1:12:04. There is a Frisian God called Fosite, who most scholars are in agreement is actually a Heathen interpretation of Poseidon who got incorporated into Frisian culture through amber trade routs. The Frisians later brought him to the Norse where he became their God Forseti. So clearly if the Barbarians to the North can worship Poseidon successfully he's not in any way exclusive to the Greeks. (Not to mention they did so for centuries longer than anyone else in Europe)
Very fascinating.
Try coming to Greece and saying they was no genocide.We have annual vigils to commemorate it. What malakia
Thank you both for the content and communities. I wish I can give this live stream video more than 1 like. I learned so much and am now looking forward to both of your books.
That was an amazing stream, I'm happy I was able to catch it, that (he doesn't want the label but if the shoe fits) folkist was so yikesey, but I learned a lot and hand a blast!
YSEE and some other resources always seemed a bit fishy to me. So would labrys be a better resource?
While I missed the live, the replay is good; if I need to break it into chunks.
Hi. Hellenist Greek here. Orphic in particular. I want to note two things.
First, regarding the word "Ethnic" used by the YSEE. Although personally I don't like this name, and I think there could be a better one, I feel like I need to provide some context regarding its use, and the thinking behind it. Abrahamic monotheistic religions such as Judaism and Christianity have the Hebrew word "goyim" used to refer to peoples who don't worship Yahweh. It literally translates to "nations" and it has been used pejoratively, as a slur. Their idea was that we, the nations of the world who worship many gods are inferior than the "chosen people" who don't belong to the nations. Thus the term "national" became a word used specifically to mean a polytheist, in the Greek speaking Eastern Roman Empire. The same way in the Latin speaking Western Empire the word "pagan" which used to mean "peasant" became synonymous with polytheism. The same way modern people who call themselves "pagans" don't mean that they are villagers, "ethnikoi" Greeks, as in the case of YSEE doesn't mean that they are nationalists or what you might be thinking.
Secondly, regarding YSEE, my problem with them is the following: that they present themselves as the one and only "true", and "official" organisation of the religion of my ancestors. They claim that they are the true continuation of the ancient religion, and that the others who are not a branch of them, are "fake". You might be calling this folkism or whatever, but they don't call "fakes" only foreign people, but also local native Greeks who choose to worship the gods and happen not to be members of their team. And the worst part of all is that they are not even historically correct. In the sense that they completely discard entire beliefs, concepts, and practices of the historic religion. For example they say that there is no such a thing as a soul or an afterlife, and that there are no daemons, and that the gods don't "hear" us and thus we shouldn't pray, and when it comes to the gods themselves they speak with generalities like "the gods are not persons but beings that exist within nature". Well I actually believe in the existence of souls. And in afterlife, and I hope I will end up at the Island of the Blessed. And I have prayed to some gods, and they heard me. But no. For these people, I am not to be taken seriously. Lol.
Ahh. Sigh. But YSEE is the lesser evil, of the evils that we have to face here in Greece. There is a way more vocal and damaging bunch of people who speak publicly about the gods. Conspiracy theorists who make up stories like saying that the gods were aliens, or that they are servants of Jesus, and other funny stuff. These guys are way more popular than YSEE would hope to be. And they make people who believe and worship the gods look stupid. Because the average Joe from Greece won't even learn about the existence of religious teams like YSEE. But he will see on some TV show a conspiracy theorist speaking about ancient aliens, and how the New World Order hides from the public the discovery of the ancient spaceship of Apollo… Yeah.
BTW, if you would like to chat, go on and send a message.
I finally caught up with the rest of this, thankfully I only ended up missing the last 15 minutes or so of it. I am kind of left pining for more even now when it comes to the mystery traditions. I was going to ask if Chelydoreus had any works available but I see that he's working on a book. In which case, I only ask or hope to be kept up to date when the book comes out. As someone with an interest in occultism from the left hand path perspective, itself consciously framed in a Pagan perspective (admittedly an eclectic one, albeit still desiring traditional context), I seek to learn from his take on the mystery tradition with a keen eye, especially given its centrality around the goddess Hecate (an iconic goddess for us LHP guys).
I was surprised at the mention of the Golden Dawn at the beginning of the chat. They are still around?
As soon as Chelydoreus said his Goddess was Hecate, pretty much everything he had said about his own path made sense.
I will admit, while I know they exist, the Folkist mindset doesn't make sense to me. We are all descended from the same sources, ultimately, so why the big deal about ancestry? A sacred space should be open to anyone who shows it proper respect.
Finally: Homophobia is nothing more than misogynists afraid men will treat them the same way they treat women.
This was a very informative video. I can only hope that eventually there is greater acceptance in the wider comunity, and that the bigotry can eventually be removed.
As a Heathen I unfortunately understand the situation. I pray that your struggles with intolerance and bigotry Within your traditions bares sweet fruit! May your revolution of truth ring with beauty! May those who oppose you experience a true hamartia!
Under Black Stars,
Io Prometheus!
I really wish I had been able to take off work to particpate in this discussion. 🙁
Thank you so much for the enlightening talk.
Well. Now I discovered Chelydoreus. I honestly stand curious about his approach. It must be one complex task to inbook the keys to a mystery.
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